There is little confidence in government's negotiations on pensions and genuine anger over the lack of consultation, General Secretary Paul Noon said in an interview with BBC News 24 this morning. 

Speaking to newsreader Simon McCoy, Noon said:  “We're really just being told what's going to happen and that makes people very angry.”

See below for a transcript of the interview.

Simon McCoy:  Well let's get more now on the news that trade unions are drawing up plans for a sustained campaign of industrial action this winter. Paul Noon is the General Secretary of Prospect union, who represent professional workers across the UK, and we can speak to him now from the Congress in central London.  A very good morning to you.

Paul Noon (General Secretary, Prospect):  Good morning.

SM:  Before I start on that, given the unemployment figures just released how do you assess what the state of the economy is at the moment?

PN:  Well I've not had chance to look in detail at the unemployment figures but there's real concern that some of the actions the government is taking in depressing the wages of public sector workers in particular, is actually leading to a reduced level of demand in the economy which is having a negative economic impact apart from its consequences for public servants.

SM:  We're just hearing that Unison is to announce that it's giving nine thousand employers formal notice that it's balloting for strike action, where you do stand on this issue?

PN:  Well our executive last week gave authority to ballot. We've not decided when that ballot is going to take place. That will depend on developments as they occur.  But it will also depend on meetings later today where we'll be coordinating with other public sector trade unions including Unison.

But I should emphasise that the point of this is not because we want to go on strike but to secure a reasonable deal on pensions and to put a bit more pressure on the government as an employer.  And it's still our primary intention to try to negotiate a way through this although I must admit that things don't look great so far.

SM:  Well the sense coming from your Congress yesterday was that these negotiations seem to be going nowhere.

PN:  Well I've been involved in the negotiations and they've been very difficult and, in fact, I wouldn't characterise all of them as negotiations; we were simply told that there'll be increases in the employee contribution rate next year and probably the year after that and the year after that.  We haven't had the details of the proposals in terms of the civil service pension scheme, which we're interested in so it's not possible to assess that. But, so far we've got absolutely no good news to take back to representatives and members and certainly plenty of problems.

SM:  I was talking to Francis Maude a little earlier who was saying that there was progress being made with these negotiations. What do you [say to the] suggestion from some of your colleagues that the government is trying to provoke strike action.

PN:  Well I don't. I wouldn't characterise it as that myself. They're certainly not handling it very well, whether that's because of design or for other reasons, I just wouldn't say.  We're pressing very hard to try to make progress but it's endlessly frustrating to us that even those unions that do want to try to make progress, and I'm sure my colleagues do as well, have not been able to because we've not got the data on which to conduct the negotiations.

We haven't seen the proposals and even on the idea of increased employee contributions there's no real belief that these are proper consultation and negotiations. We're really just being told what's going to happen and that makes people very angry.

Many of our members see this just as an additional tax on public sector workers - the additional employee contributions - to pay for economic difficulties; nothing to do with the affordability of pension schemes.

SM:  What Francis Maude said was that the public do not support any strike action. Is that your assessment?

PN:  It's very difficult to say. I mean the support so far that we've had from members has been fairly significant and I think what will impact them - it's not only six million public sector workers but their families as well - is unfairness. 

I don't think people want to see a race to the bottom on pensions. They don't want to see equality in misery and we'll be setting out very clearly why we think what government is proposing to do is wrong and unfair on public sector workers, and we will be looking for public sector support.

SM:  Just so that you're as up-to-date as our viewers are, just to let you know Unison has given formal notice to its employers, nine thousand of them, that one point one million will be balloted for industrial action over pensions.

I just wondered if you had any comment to make. Mark Littlewood from the Institute for Economic Affairs says that public workers are not the oppressed poor, that they enjoy unbelievable job security, more generous annual holidays - an average worker in the public sector earns four thousand more a year in their salary.  What do you say to that?

PN:  I think he's living in a different world than I am.  What we're seeing is massive cuts in public sector budgets.  For instance in my union we've seen the closure, not the run down, of the Audit Commission; of the Forensic Science Service; whole swathes of the Ministry of Defence and bringing forward the pace at which real redundancies are taking place.  That doesn't feel like job security to me.

We're in the middle of a pay freeze and on top of that increased employee contributions towards pension schemes.  So I don't know where he gets his data from but it doesn't tally with our experience in the slightest.

SM:  Paul Noon from the Prospect union thank you very much for joining us this morning.

PN:  Thank you.

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